WIX Archives

Syrian Spitfires: Postings from the old WW Site LONG!

Posted by Paul McMillan on Thu Oct 11, 2001 04:50:39 AM

As requested.. This is 'as is' I have not edited the original and the order may be out of sync..

Paul

Posted by john parker on December 01, 2000 at 00:12:55:

I have a long memory and a huge archive of old aircraft publications. In a copy of Flight magazine from the early seventies there is a letter and a photo from a gentleman who described finding six or seven late model spitfires abandoned on a military airfield near Damascus as well as a "Bf 109"?

I subsequently followed this up through diplomatic channels and they were definately there so it was no rummor ( woops). Later I heard that there were sightings by airline staff overflying.

At about this time the middle east went through turmoil and it became impossible to do any more by way of discovery.

Does anybody know any more on this.

I still have the article if anybody wants a copy i could send it on to them.


Posted by Dave on December 02, 2000 at 01:02:49:

In Reply to: Spitfires still in Syria ? posted by john parker on December 01, 2000 at 00:12:55:

John

There was also a photo in a seventies copy of Aeroplane Monthly , showing a line up of Mk.22 Spits in a desert storage area. The photo was taken by a Norh American collector [ name escapes me ]who had tried to purchase the aircraft - but was alas unsuccessful.
I read recently that someone else is working with the Syrian government in searching for any surviving aircraft....


regards

Dave

Posted by Terence Burns on March 23, 2001 at 18:11:42:

Does anyone have any information on the fate of the Spitfire F.22's that were sold to the Syrian Air Force in the later 1940's/early '50's? Have any been recovered by collectors? I have heard reports that they were still in use as airfield decoys as late as the early 1970's, and have seen a black and white photo of a dilapidated, camouflaged F.22 in Syrian markings that dates from around 1970, but can find no reports on the status of the aircraft after this time.

While the political situation within Syria remians complicated - to say the least - I have been thinking recently that the accession to power of Bashar Assad may create some opportunities for western enthusiasts and collectors, should any of these aircraft survive. The Syrians also made use of Italian aircraft and several Hawker products, as well, so there may be other "finds" awaiting a dilligent researcher. Does anyone out there know how to get in touch with historian and author David Nicolle? perhaps he might be able to shed some light on the subject.

Posted by Dave on July 07, 2001 at 03:25:36:

Came across an old photo of late marque Spits parked up in the Syrian desert. Apparently a well known Nth.American collector [ name escapes me] tried to purchase the aircraft , but was unsuccessful. Heard a while back someone else was working on finding any survivors with the cooperation of the Syrian govt.
Anyone have anything further??

regards

Dave




Posted by WILL on July 12, 2001 at 20:49:14:

In Reply to: Re: Syrian Spits..........Attention WILL!!!!!!! posted by Ross on July 12, 2001 at 18:44:40:

: Hi Will,

: I just wondered if it might be possible to get your former colleague to do a bit of aircraft recognition for us ,to try to pinpoint the "radial" engined types you mentioned or indeed any others that he may have seen.
: I think you are going to have to pull the old Good Cop / Bad Cop routine on him!
: Sit him in front of a good book with loads of piccies and profiles and don't let him go until he tells us what they are, LOL :-)

: TTFN ,Ross

: All in jest of course!

: TONY ,welcome back!
: Did you manage to find anything on the satelite images?

HELLO ROSS,
I NOW OWE ME MATE ONE VERY EXPENSIVE SAT PHONE WHICH I FORGOT TO GIVE HIM AND ACCUMULATING RATHER LARGE AMOUNTS OF IOU TO HIM. HOWEVER, HE SAYS HE WISHES HE'D NEVER MET ME BUT WILL LOOK AT SOME PICTURES WHEN HE GETS THE CHANCE. IN THE INTERIM, HE HAS SAID "...SIMILAR LOOKING TO THE PHOTO OF THE FURY, YOU SENT ME (PAUL MORGANS)BUT MUCH SMALLER, OPEN COCKPIT, SINGLE SEAT, AND A RIPPLED RADIAL COWLING. NOW LEAVE ME ALONE FOR ONCE! IF THEY REALLY WANT TO FIND OUT MORE GET FRIENDLY WITH THE AMBASSADOR IN LONDON. THEY ARE VERY AMICABLE IF YOUR HONEST AND FRIENDLY..."

NOT MUCH HELP. IF YOU WANT, I'M QUITE HAPPY TO INTERCEDE WITH THE SYRIANS WHERE APPROPRIATE. THEY ARE REALLY VERY PLEASANT SO LONG AS YOU ARE FRANK, AND HONEST. I'LL SEND SOME PHOTOS OVER TO HIM OF SOME ITALIAN TYPES AND SEE IF THERE IS ANY RESEMBLANCE TO WHAT HE SAW WHILST AT WORK 10 ODD YEARS AGO. PS; HE DID SAY THAT KNACKERED IS PROBABLY AN UNDERSTATEMENT!




: Dave

GENTLEMEN I AM SAT HERE WITH A 'FORMER COLLEAGUE WHO RELIABLY INFORMS ME THAT YOUR SPITFIRES ARE SPOT ON, MAINLY LOW BACKS, HOWEVER THERE ARE HE SAYS SOME HIGH BACKS WHICH HE THOUGHT AT FIRST WERE LOW BACKS BUT HAVE BEEN CRUNCHED. HE ALSO SAYS THAT HE ISN'T SURE ABOUT THE MESSERSCHMIDTS AS HE ONLY REMEMBERS THOSE THAT WERE NOT SPITS HAVING WHAT APPEARED TO BE RADIAL ENGINES, SO I SUPPOSE THEY MAY BE ITALIAN JOBS. THE AIRFIELDS AROUND DAMASCUS ARE HE SAYS YOUR BEST BET. HOWEVER HE SUGGESTS MR SATELLITE MAN LOOKS TO THE OUT LYING AREAS AS WELL. BORDER AIRFIELDS WHERE YOU MAY FIND SOMETHING NICE?. THIS IS ALL CURRENT AS OF LATE 1990 EARLY 1991. HE ALSO SUGGESTS FIND YOURSELF A FRIEND OVER THERE, BE DIPLOMATIC MIND YOUR P's AND Q's AND START AT THE TOP. HE ALSO SUGGESTS THAT EGYPT AND LIBYA ARE FRIGHTFULLY FRIENDLY AT THE MOMENT, THOUGH NOT THE LATTER IF YOUR AMERICAN. AND AS HE NOW TELLS ME HE'LL BE LATE FOR HIS PLANE, HE SAYS TO BEAR IN MIND THAT 'WISE MEN FROM THE EAST ALWAYS COME BEARING GIFTS' SO MAKE LIKE A WISE MAN!




Hello fellow Spitfire Hunters!

This gets more interesting by the day!

I am not aware of the Syrian Air Force having radial engined Italian fighters,the types listed as serving with them were all inline V-12s (Merlin :- G-59 ; DB605 :- G-55 ,C-205) ,but never say never!
Another possibility is Fiat G-46 (inline engine) trainers ,single or two seaters.

If they are radials then they are probably more likely to be T6 Texans(10) ,Yak 11s (10) or Yak 18s (28 ?).

Still doen't explain why some planes have already been identified as "109s" though.
Perhaps more than one airfield location is being talked about, so there could be a fair amount of seriously mouth watering planes spread around Syria ?

I wish some photos would appear!

If they also have high back Spitfires ,then they are most likely ex Egyptian or Turkish Mk IXs.
Unless a few of the Burmese Spitfires (from Israel) were forced down in Syria on delivery flights.
It is of course possible that some Israeli examples were captured at some stage.
I would put my bet on Egyptian Mk IXs however.

Does anyone know if the Turks have ever been friendly enough with Syria to have sold the Syrians some Spitfires ?

TTFN, Ross.


Posted by Terence Burns on July 09, 2001 at 21:53:02:

In Reply to: Syrian Spits posted by Dave on July 07, 2001 at 03:25:36:

Nice to see some action on this topic. I posted an inquiry about the status of these aircraft on this site about two-three months ago but got no response.

I'm encouraged by the reports that 10-15 of the original 20 Mk 22's have survived. The last I had heard they were being employed as airfield decoys backn in the late 1960's/early '70's. I'm skeptical about the Me109/Avia S199's though. The Luftwaffe didn't leave a lot of equipment behind in Syria, and Syrian forces didn't do a lot of "overrunning" of Israeli territory during any of the Arab-Israeli wars (it was usually the other way around!). In no history of Israel or the IAF-DF that I've read does it mention large losses of Avia's to opposing forces. Those that were lost in combat were shot down and would only exist as wreckage today, if at all, so its unlikely that the "Messerschmitts" are S199's (unless, of course, the Czechs did some shady deals with the Syrians back in the 1946-48 period, too). More probably they are Macchi Mc205's or Fiat G55's, both of which were known to have been sold to arab air forces - including Syria's - by the Italians in the late 1940's. It's been my experience that to the casual observer, any old kite of Central European origin with a DB up front is an "Me 109".

Terence


Posted by david j burke on July 07, 2001 at 13:09:35:

In Reply to: Syrian Spits posted by Dave on July 07, 2001 at 03:25:36:

The was a total of twenty Spitfire F.22's supplied by Vickers to Syria in 1954/55.
In 1967 Bob Diemert ( Canadian) viewed them at Homs(ten in total) and four near Damascus. Later they would be considered for use in the 'Battle of Britain' but they were unable to conclude a deal with the authorities. The have been perisistant reports of them over the years but what we really need is 'fresh' n ew pictures to prove that they do really still exist.


Posted by Ross on July 09, 2001 at 10:14:19:

In Reply to: Syrian Spits posted by Dave on July 07, 2001 at 03:25:36:

Well this is Brilliant News about Syrian Spitfires!

I had always thought that they must still be there.
This reinforces my belief that there has got to be loads of stuff in these "less open" countries just waiting for us westerners to go get 'em. I bet Egypt has still got some surprises for us?

T.G.Mahaddie tried to aquire them for the BoB film about the same time as Bob Diemert,1967,and that's the last that anyone saw of them it seems,unless someone knows different!
As far as I can remember,Steve Atkins tried to get them as well in recent years but he came away thinking that they do not exist.

According to Spitfire Survivors,there were 4 Mk 22s at Damascus with another 10 in the desert at Homs.
If there are now 7-9 at Damascus then maybe some have been moved around since 1967 ,but also some may have been destroyed since 67.

The Avia S.199s ,if that is what they are,have got to be ex-Israeli examples ,and presumably were captured at some stage since 1948,maybe an airfield was overun before they could get off the ground?
Apart from French stuff,which would be great,there is a possibility that they could be Syrian Air Force Fiat G.55s or G.59s ,or maybe Macchi C.205 Veltros,any of these would be welcome,or even........ one or two of everything including MS.406s and D.520s ,that would just be superb.
John Parker,how many "109s" are we talking about,is it known atall atall?

TTFN
Ross.

Ps.Now all we've got to do is sit and wait for the next 10,000 years or so for the Syrians and Israelis etc etc to forget what they were fighting about and kiss and make up ,and allow us Infidels to go and collect them!!!!!!!

In Reply to: Syrian Spits posted by Dave on July 07, 2001 at 03:25:36:

Dave

More than a few have tried to secure these over the years and quite a lot of chaps from the UK, USA ect amongst them. I am afraid it is very much the same old story with these - There in fact 7- 9 late model Spits plus several Bf 109 aircraft on a field near Damascus and thaey have been there for many years and I believe that they may well stay there for some time to come. Recently an aquaintance of mine overflew the site and the A/C are still in situ. unfortunately several of the chaps have made a fairly ham fisteed effort to secure them in the past and that has rather wrecked matters for everybody else. Add to that the rather sensative nature of the area and you have a recipe for a mess. Still One day who knows................

: Came across an old photo of late marque Spits parked up in the Syrian desert. Apparently a well known Nth.American collector [ name escapes me] tried to purchase the aircraft , but was unsuccessful. Heard a while back someone else was working on finding any survivors with the cooperation of the Syrian govt.
: Anyone have anything further??

: regards

: Dave


Posted by john.parker on July 09, 2001 at 00:40:45:

In Reply to: Re: Syrian Spits posted by Dave on July 07, 2001 at 07:56:27:

Dave+

I can't say how but trust me The A/C are still there (those near Damascus anyway ). The problem with photos is WHERE they are if you know what I mean - life is too short to wake up dead. Best left till things over there sort out. The up side is that NO ONE is going to get them and at least they won't corrode - by the way the Bf 109 are the Avia variety I think which makes them both rare and desireable/undesireable depending on your view
Regards
John P
: John


Ok, got some satellite flybys of airfields in the area.

My photo-enchancement software ain't up to the job, but I'm sure someone's is

There are two airfields in the Homs/Hims area

Homs/Hims (Military)
Shayrat (Military)

Damascus area Dumayr (Military)
Damascus Intl. Military/Civil
Sayqual (Military)
Marj Ruhayyil/Najha (Military)
An Nasiriyam (Military)
Damascus/Mezze (Military)

So, if u have one hell of a photo-editing suite... then holler..

To the South-South West of Homs, there is also a large body of water...and we all know how Magnetic lakes seem to be to Aeroplanes -lol

Sample piccie at url below...

Photo reduced to 16 colours to help download speeds

http://www.facelink.com/shayrat



Posted by WILL on August 18, 2001 at 14:24:04:

WELL,I HAVE HAD A RESPONSE TO THE SYRIAN QUESTION, AND THE RESPONSE IS, "...I SUGGEST THE AIRCRAFT I SAW WERE THE MC200's..." OFF YOU TROT CHAPS! QUESTION FROM ME NOW, DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE T6s STACKED IN A YARD NEAR DECIMOMMANU SARDINNIA IN 1993? YOU WENT OUT OF THE GATE AT THE AIRBASE AND TURNED RIGHT TOWARDS THE MOUNTAINS. THEY WERE IN A METAL WALLED YARD AND THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE, STACKED UP ON EACH OTHER. FINALLY, PAUL, THE LOSS OF SUCH A FINE SCRIPT THAT TRULLY WAS THE PULSE OF THIS COMMUNITY IS A SIGNIFICANT AND TRAGIC LOSS, FOR ALL, MORE SO YOURSELF. I HOPE THAT THE INFRASTRUCTURE REMAINS INTACT AND THAT WITH YOUR GOODWILL AND SPIRITS RESTORED THE OPPRTUNITY TO START AGAIN SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE MAY AVAIL ITSELF. I AM APPALLED THAT NO BODY OR PUBLISHER COULD SPOT SUCH A MARKET NICHE LEADER AND HELP. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A BREW, HERE IN COVENTRY FOR YOU, SHOULD YOU BE PASSING, -I HAVE GOT THEM OFF TO A FINE ART NOW! ...BEST WISHES!


WILL MATLEY

p9306@hotmail.com


Den, well, well, well, you were with RAE hey? Would you mind fritefully reading the posting about the Desford down the page. RAE used it for prone pilot work as the Bobsleigh. Any suggestions as to who may have kept any technical info ideally drawings, would be gratefully recieved. 02476 687188. Now then, 27, systems operator with atlantic airlines group on Coastguard contract. Flying since the age of eight, University Air Squadron, -London, PPL then Chipmunks, Chipmunks, Chipmunks, under the eminent tutelage of initially Dennis Neville, at Duxford, -very nice man, then Peter Thorn (CFS, BBMF, Diamond Nine, G-FIRE etc etc) at Kemble, very, very nice and definitely the finest pilot I have or am ever likely to fly with. So having gone to university and not done to well at becoming a fihter pilot I now make the tea and spy on nasty people who make a mess at sea! Presently hammering at the JAA ATPLS (product of the spawn of satan!)and hoping one day to move from making the tea to driving! Biggest achievement to date? persuading Paul to visit Coventry. How? I hear you say?, one word, MUSTANG!Hope you know someone with a set of drawings! All the best!

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