WIX Archives
Will - I'll dig out my files and let u know
Posted by Elliott on Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:15:46 AM
In reply top Which B-17 was it? posted by Will Fowler on Sun Jul 07, 2002 03:49:46 AM
: Hi Elliot,
:
: Which B-17 was it you recovered? are the remains on diplay
: ?
:
: Sorry, off the original track but just would like to know
: more about this plane.
:
: Regards,
:
: Will
:
:
: : : It seems an interesting deabate has been opened up by
: co
: : mm
: : : ents arising out of my case. In a way, the issue of Cr
: ow
: : n/
: : : MOD ownership was central in the final analysis to the
: p
: : ro
: : : ceedings in my case. However, I will not comment furth
: er
: : v
: : : ia this forum on the court case or its satisfactory ou
: tc
: : om
: : : e - save to say that the RAF Press Officer Squadron Le
: ad
: : er
: : : Elaine McLeod this week said that I had been "exonera
: te
: : d"
: : : . Coupled with Judge Rennie's praise of my actions isn
: 't
: : i
: : : t, surely, a case of 'nuff said on that point? Ownersh
: ip
: : t
: : : hough, now thats another matter!
: : : It is a fact that RAF aircraft wrecks, wherever they w
: er
: : e
: : : in the world, were "Struck off Charge". Look at the re
: le
: : va
: : : nt Air Publications on that point and draw your own co
: nc
: : lu
: : : sions. Moving on to 8th May 1972, the MOD said in writ
: in
: : g
: : : that they had no further interest in these wrecks, tha
: t
: : th
: : : ey had abandoned all claim to them and that they had b
: ee
: : n
: : : reduced into the possession of the landowner upon whos
: l
: : an
: : : d they lay. By about 1975 the MOD were taking a differ
: en
: : t
: : : stance, saying they owned them after all. Despite bein
: g
: : pr
: : : essed repeatedly on the matter they have never satisfa
: ct
: : or
: : : ily explained the change of tack. Considering that the
: y
: : "a
: : : bandoned" them through the Struck off Charge process a
: nd
: : c
: : : onfirmed the abandonment in 1972 I believe that MOD cl
: ai
: : m
: : : to title is tenuous in the extreme. Add to this the ci
: vi
: : l
: : : laws on abandonment and I fail to see they have any ca
: se
: : a
: : : t all. If you or I left our property on private land f
: or
: : s
: : : ixty years or more I suspect our claim to ownership mi
: gh
: : t
: : : be a little shaky. Ah, yes, I hear you all say, but wh
: at
: : a
: : : bout the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986? Wel
: l,
: : w
: : : hat about it? Can we dispel a myth here. The PMR Act d
: oe
: : s
: : : not confer ownership of wrecked aircraft on the MOD. I
: t
: : is
: : : entirely silent on the issue, and so were the debates
: o
: : n
: : : the matter in the Houses of Commons and Lords. The MOD
: w
: : ou
: : : ld like to have us believe that the Act does confer ow
: ne
: : rs
: : : hip - but read it and see. It does not. All it does is
: r
: : eq
: : : uire that within the UK one needs a licence to work on
: c
: : ra
: : : sh sites. As for RAF wrecks abroad, well the Act canno
: t
: : ap
: : : ply outside the UK so only the sovereign laws of the l
: an
: : d
: : : where the wrecks lie could be applicable. Of course, i
: f
: : as
: : : ked, then I am sure the MOD will claim wrecks as their
: o
: : wn
: : : just in a rather opportunistic way in case they decid
: e
: : th
: : : ey want them. The Lancaster in Sweden is an interestin
: g
: : ca
: : : se.
: : : As for former USAAF aircraft, the written US Policy on
: t
: : he
: : : se (unlike USN airplanes) is total abandonment in exac
: tl
: : y
: : : the same way as the MOD stance in May 1972. I have it
: in
: : w
: : : riting, chapter and verse, from the US authorities. Me
: an
: : wh
: : : ile, the MOD here untruthfully claim in writing that U
: SA
: : AF
: : : wrecks still belong to the US Government - but the US
: G
: : ov
: : : ernment are saying opposite. Either the MOD are muddle
: d
: : in
: : : their stance over the whole ownership thing, or they
: ar
: : e
: : : not playing with a straight bat.
: : : Sorry about the length of this, but I hope it opens up
: a
: : d
: : : ebate. It is a serious issue. For example, what about
: RA
: : F
: : : wrecks brought into the UK and restored? In theory, if
: i
: : t
: : : ever came to an export licence, the UK Govt could say
: "N
: : o"
: : : because Hurricane P1234 or whatever is still Crown Pr
: op
: : er
: : : ty. Do I have a point? Andy Saunders.
: :
: : I am not the biggest fan of the MoD by a long shot - I f
: in
: : d them beurocratic - their representatives can be hostil
: e
: : and rude, but sometimes very helpful and supportive. I'
: ve
: : had some heated telephone exchanges and get frustrated
: so
: : metimes as I always take great care to jump through thei
: r
: : petty beurocratic hoops - even though this often leaves
: me
: : at a disadvantage at least I have the law on my side.
: :
: : We dug a B-17 about 4 years ago (with a licence). The s
: it
: : e was raided by some individuals from Surrey (who did no
: t
: : have a licence) the day before we were due to dig. They
: c
: : aused a lot of damage - the aircrafts wings were intact
: an
: : d buried just below the surface on some mudflats. Also
: in
: : tact were the engine nacelles, engines and props - at lo
: w
: : tide the prop tips could be seen. We were able to find
: ou
: : t a lot about the aircraft and it's crew and met up with
: t
: : he navigator and I was able to give him back his navigat
: io
: : n computer, something he left behind in his sinking B-17
: a
: : s a young fearless 19 year old. They got into the dingh
: y
: : and were rescued without even getting their feet wet!
: :
: : Our colleagues tore two engines from the bearers, trashe
: d
: : a beautiful pair of intact nacelles, ripped out two of t
: he
: : fuel tanks, left live ammo all over the beach (which ca
: us
: : ed all sorts of repercussions). They also dug up a pair
: a
: : M2 Brownings and the MoD had a fit.
: :
: : The MoD police did a great job in tracking them down and
: a
: : fter a dawn raid managed to recover most of the stuff th
: ey
: : 'stole'. They went to court and were successfully pros
: ec
: : uted - as far as I know, it was the first successful pro
: se
: : cution under the 1986 PMR Act. Anyway, the point is, th
: es
: : e people were total arseholes and made what should have
: be
: : en a very productive dig - of a historically important c
: om
: : bat aircraft (with major intcat sections in good conditi
: on
: : ) which we were able to research to a high level (with l
: oc
: : al expert help) - into a total shambles by destroying la
: rg
: : e sections of the aircraft just to get the bloody engine
: s.
: :
: :
: : The live ammo on the beech issue was brought up in Parli
: am
: : ent! If people follow rules and are regulated this sort
: o
: : f thing (hopefully) becomes a rarity. Maybe I am being
: a
: : little niave - after all, common sence is not common - b
: ut
: : it would be wrong to let people loose on the potentiall
: y
: : hazardous remains of aircraft.
: :
: : It has always seemed to me that the only reason the MoD
: re
: : gulate these activities is to prevent injury from live o
: rd
: : nance (although lets face it - you have to pretty unluck
: y
: : - or very thick to get blown up on a dig) or the more se
: ri
: : ous issue of human remains.
: :
: : I do feel that the MoD should have a more responsible at
: ti
: : tude towards missing servicemen. If I had a missing rel
: at
: : ive and found out that the MoD had known their last rest
: in
: : g place for the past 60 years and not informed me I woul
: d
: : be furious.
: :
: : We found the remains of 8 US soldiers in a common grave
: in
: : Indonesia plus several aircraft with associated remains
: i
: : n various jungle locations. It took a couple of months
: af
: : ter I got back, but the CILHI sent out a team to follow
: up
: : our report. This would be very unlikely to happen in t
: he
: : UK. The Japanese, Canadian and Australian authorities
: al
: : so actively pursue missing servicemen once found.
: :
: : The only case I am aware of outside the UK of missing se
: rv
: : icemen being recovered was with the crew from Fairey Bat
: tl
: : e P2330 in Iceland.
: :
: : I would like to know exactly what charges were brought a
: ga
: : inst Andy and which ones stuck and which ones didn't. T
: he
: : law is always open to interpretation and it is a relief
: t
: : hat honourable motives are rewarded in the eyes of the l
: aw
: : .
: :
: : Thank god!
: :
: : I'm sorry this is such a long post - I'm not known for l
: on
: : g posts, but it's very thought provoking and a subject t
: ha
: : t is very important to me. If anyone wants to email me
: th
: : en I'd be pleased to carry on the discussion privately.
: :
: : Elliott
: :